Dr Lee’s Talking Point: Models Misled To Do Nudity?

In our recent Nitda Cee post, the issue arose of models being misled into doing (semi-)nudity, through such techniques as using light clothing that becomes see-through with a flash, or simply telling a model nude photos won’t be published when they actually are. I might have been inclined to dismiss such complaints as simply naΓ―vety on the part of the model, except for the fact that I’ve received so many of them over the years I’ve been running Asian Sirens, often resulting in me taking posts down at the model’s request. So I thought I’d do a post inviting people to post their own experiences in this matter – I strongly encourage photographers to post their own perspective too. And what do our readers think? Is this unfair to the model, or in this era of ‘implied nudity’, are such techniques fair game to give the public what we want?I should stress that the opinions expressed in these comments are not necessarily those of Asian Sirens, and we accept no responsibility for them. If you disagree with a comment here, you can post a rebuttal.

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0 thoughts on “Dr Lee’s Talking Point: Models Misled To Do Nudity?”

  1. Apologies for XavierMelo’s work-in-progress post going up earlier – he’s new to the team and accidentally published it before he was finished. πŸ™‚

  2. I have repeatedly been asked to pose for glamorous photo shoots, and often they try to trick me into showing my fabulous assets in the buff… until they actually see them and then they ask me to leave quietly with my stipend.

    Seriously, I see it as a simple issue. A model gets contracted to do a job. The terms are clear, promises are made. If the terms and the promises are broken or even seriously bent, the people who hired the model should be liable for breach of contract and they should have to pay all reasonable damages. This includes pain and humiliation or damage to reputation.

    I will never buy the argument that in the world of modeling or any other related field (ahem) that the spoken and written word is subject to reinterpretation or reneging, and that the victim (yes, victim) “should have known better” or was too naive. Everybody should be able to be naive, and employers should be good to their word and trustworthy.

    As an art director I’ve hired dozens of models and nothing was ever released without their strict permission.

  3. Hi. Before i was comfortable with my own body, i never did implied nudes. I only did fashion, glamour, bikini, etc…. Was changing in the bathroom for my next set and the photographer open the door and snapped photos of me naked.maybe it was my fault for not locking the door but still.

    Then i started to do only implied nude…i made an agreement with another photographer that i only do implied nude and don’t want fully nude photos taken…i specifically said that i don’t want my boobs to show or my down there…i made it very clear nothing was to show..we both agreed on that…but he was snapping photos close up of my…down there…and i didn’t know until i all to look through the roll and saw what he did…so maybe it was my fault to expect it..

    But now..I’m comfortable in my skin to pose nude lol

  4. I have no connection to the modelling world (as much as I would like to), and I feel for celebrities who suffer the same invasions of privacy. I guess the difficulty is that as much as these acts may offend my principles I would still look at the pictures. I guess that ultimately makes me as guilty for providing the market for that material. It would be nice to think that the models could be given the chance to look through all the pictures quickly from any given session but that would probably only open up a much larger bag of issues.

  5. Okay, here are my thoughts:

    – It’s completely unethical for a company that doesn’t get permission to take those types of photos to sell them. Even worse if there is some type of blackmail involved.

    – I do, however, think that any model that got used like that should embrace it. I think that fighting it adds to the allure, probably helps the site they hate, and can’t be taken offline anyway. Better to embrace it than pretend it didn’t happen.

    – I mean this with no disrespect to Nitda, Amy Vang, or any other model that was played, but I do think that there’s really no difference professionally between a close to naked photo and a naked photo. No one is going to see you as more professional or less professional because you hid your nipple with your finger. If your nipple is showing or not, if you’re pretty much naked you’re pretty much naked.

    – That said, I still believe that there needs to be more model rights, because it’s possible to take photos that the person had no permission to take. There is a website now that I’m not going to link to where I am almost positive the photographer has them pose implied nude but “covered up” and then places cameras all around the room so that he gets multiple shots of the models when they’re not covered.

    – I don’t believe that any photo should legally belong to a photographer without each individual photo being labeled under the model release. Any that aren’t should be considered belonging to both, in which case the models would have the legal rights to take it offline.

    Those are my assorted thoughts.

  6. If a model is in business of sexual, provocative type poses and clothing, she should be aware she is likely to be encouraged to shed as much clothing as possible at times. Modesty and virtue is already out of the question. I feel that models posing nude, near nude or hard-core are equally immoral and unladylike in conduct. As much as I enjoy the photos of these ladies, I would never want my sister or wife to be the subject of the camera lens in a risque and suggestive behavior.

    I believe in the saying. “Be a lady in public and a slut behind closed doors”.

    With that said, the photos should have the models approval before ever being published or shared. The model should have the rights to the photos and final say whether she wants to personally keep the photo for her own private collection, destroy it or release it for public viewing.

  7. Use a reputable photographer. Do not just go to someone that is willing to create a portfolio for you and themselves. An individuals body is their property.

    It would be like inviting a delivery person out of the weather to sign for a package. You take your eyes off of them and they are going through your dresser drawer or closet.

    Complete invasion of privacy.

    As models in the business they should realize that this can be a “sleazy” business. Not all photographers are like that, but the model should watch each on as though they were. Not in a mean way but keep your eyes and ears open.

    Myself I’m also guilty of looking for those rare photos of models that I like that should not have been released. If I were to get a letter to delete all photos of said model I would. I also do not post pictures to websites so any photos that I did find or stumble across stay where only I see what I downloaded.

  8. Now I’m feeling guilty about all the models I have been intently squinting at trying to make out the bits that are hidden.

    I think it’s easy to forget (or at least deny to yourself) that the models online (even those in hard porn) are real people away from the camera. Somebody’s sister/daughter, even possibly mother.

    Having said that, surely any model willing to pose for the camera for a shoot targeted towards the ‘adult’ market (whether full nude or not) would be naive to not expect or at least be wary of unscrupulous photographers….

    I’m just glad such people haven’t turned Nancy Bui towards a different career path…

  9. Over the years, contracts become clarified and universal enough to almost become “standardized”. For example, you can actually download landlord-tenant contracts (by jurisdiction here in the USA) that are so ironclad, judges know them by heart.

    When a model and photographer get together, they create art. Can’t a simple clause be added to a “standardized” photographer-model contract that states they each have to agree- PHOTO by PHOTO, before it is released? I suppose many photographers AND models would not sign it- but it would reveal the intentions of each, no?

    My friend is an entertainment lawyer in Los Angeles. He charges a lousy $350 for his “standardized” photographer-model contract.

    I know several “models” in their late 20s whom had photos taken at the urging of some long-ago boyfriend. Their “career” never took off (other than as bar girls who go to Vegas three times a year as eye candy and who knows what else) and now that they are applying for office jobs, they want those photos gone. Too late.

  10. @wknight: You used an interesting choice of words. You said, “If I were to get a letter to delete all photos of said model I would.”

    Would you delete if you only received a phone call or email? From the model or the model’s mother, father, boyfriend, girlfriend, lawyer, etc? Would you demand compensation for your time and equipment to take those photos? Did you have an agreement (verbal or written)? Did a lawyer draw it up?

    My point is that this is a business or it is vanity. If it is business, get a good contract.

    Oh, and Nancy Bui (swoon) posted today. She is hot!

  11. I’m split on my feelings. Certainly there are some unscrupulous photographers out there that do unacceptable things. Opening a bathroom or dressing room door and shooting pics is in that area for sure. Taking multiple angles without permission to gain nude pictures is obviously underhanded.

    On the other hand, it seems like a model should know what they are getting into. Wouldn’t you sign a contract stating that you would not do nude. That would be a binding contract, if it’s infringed then you can litigate. Also, women know what kind of clothes and angles they are in, I find it difficult to believe it’s that easy to con a girl into clothes that a flash shows nudity in and they aren’t aware. I think often it comes down to buyer’s remorse. They regret after the fact that they made a choice to do something. That’s life, you make choices and you live with the consequences. It’s like young kids posting pics online. They may regret it later, but it’s already done.

    Also, if you’re doing implied nude then really, what’s the difference? Most implied now is essentially nude without the nipple or bush, but everything else is there so really it’s minimally different.

    Finally, there’s nothing more annoying than a hypocrite who looks or does something and enjoys it, but then calls the people who provide that enjoyment immoral or sluts. It’s even worse in my eyes to partake of something if you find it immoral.

  12. The cost of pursuing legal matters is very restrictive no matter how strong you feel your case is. I know it is a generalization but I imagine many models don’t pursue their cases as far as they would like.

  13. Are there any cases where the photographer just did his job and his company leafed through the pics and grabbed what they wanted? Seems like that could be a potential problem, as well.

  14. I’m torn over this issue. From the models perspective, her images are her brand, which needs to be protected. At the very least, she should have some type of approval.

    On the other hand, I can see the photographers perspective too. I have no idea how these contracts are written up, but if the photographer has paid the model for her time, the photographer has control over the artistic output to a great degree. If the model has agreed to pose in almost nothing or use strategically placed things to cover herself, it would be expected that many of the photos will show nudity.

    Frankly, I don’t understand the implied nude thing. What’s the big difference between showing 95% of your breast vs. the whole thing? Its naive to think people will view it any differently.

  15. I am not torn on this issue at all. The issue is perfectly clear. If a model specifically states that a shoot is to be “implied” it is unethical, rude, impolite, disrespectful and a contract violation for a photographer to conspire to find ways to capture a photograph of exactly what the model wants to not show. If the written and signed release does not specifically state that the model withholds authorization of the photographer to publish or otherwise distribute photographs which show certain specified portions of her body, her verbally communicated restrictions may not be enforceable, but they should nonetheless be respected by any professional photographer, and he knows it. The rate he has agreed to pay is for “implied”. He has not paid for a “nude” shoot and shouldn’t pretend otherwise.

  16. Nude vs. non-nude is NOT the issue. Define non-nude? A little nipple showing? Only one nipple? Fully clothed but nipples pushing against the clothing? Body paint? Etc….

    My point is that a model may not be comfortable with the photographic images created. May be the lighting and angles showed too much, or perhaps even a “bad” view. Perhaps a photographer thinks the photo is of poor quality and does NOT want it shown as representative of her (the photographer) work.

    Some models have paid to get photos taken, thinking it will help their career. Some photographers pay models, thinking it will help their career. Without a clearly written, defined contract, a court of law would side with the entity that paid. With a good contract, there could be a defined period of time that gives either entity the option to discard the photo.

    Most states recognize a “cooling off” period, allowing an entity to back out of a signed contract up to 72 hours after signing.

    Also, am I the only one who noticed that Nancy Bui (swoon) posted here AGAIN?!?! How cool is that? To quote General Maximus from Gladiator: “Are you not entertained?”

  17. Ultimately, it would be great if there was a go-to website for models to read up candid reviews of modeling experiences for certain photographers (like Yelp, etc). If anyone, and particularly if many people, state that the photographer took shots they weren’t supposed to, then perhaps the models who do their research and trust those reviews can avoid the scumbags.

  18. Issue is simple to me: models should clearly define in the contract what kind of photos they allow for use by the photographer, full nudity or not. And should have the right to have accidental nude photos erased after a photoshoot.

    Of course, models are on the weaker side, many can’t afford any legal action against unethical photographers.

    Full nudity is a direct view of a woman’s body, while implied nude plays the sensuality game. It’s a big difference and has different purposes (and different law restrictions also).

    Nancybui, it was not your fault at all. Don’t blame yourself for the actions of some sleazy photographer.
    And speaking of nudity and photos, when can we have the pleasure of appreciating some of your photos, nude or not? πŸ˜‰

  19. Do you guy’s forget so quickly? (I know French doesn’t). After all these opinions I don’t know if this qualifies as nude anymore πŸ˜‰
    http://asian-sirens.com/blog/comments.php?id=2269_0_1_0_C
    I have to say I appreciate that Nancy has stuck around to offer her perspective on various posts, I would have liked to get Nitda’s views/ experiences here to add another models perspective on the issue, although I guess it was pretty evident from her feature.

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